Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
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aleilee2008
4 years 8 months 27 days
The best answer
You can select the best answer for current question!
Answered byaleilee2008
4 years 8 months 26 days
Dear Mr.Brooks
thanks for your this article.
And thank all experts for your comments.
I knew that self-coupling can be realized in Hyperlynx LineSim after proper
coupling setting.
But I'm not sure if self-coupling calculation is involved in Hyperlynx BoardSim.
At least, self-coupling can't be seen in Hyperlynx LineSim after exporting the
serpentine line from BoardSim to LineSim on my side.
Can any BoardSim users give me some clues to this topic?
Regards
Lei
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:35:34 -0700
From: dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
I wrote an article once specifically on this effect. You can download it at
http://www.ultracad.com/mentor/mentor%20signal%20timing2.pdf
Also check out my latest book
"PCB Trace and Via Currents and Temperatures: The Complete Analysis"
Can get it it here
http://www.amazon.com/author/dougbrooks
Doug Brooks
Lee Ritchey wrote:
I HAVE USED THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MAKING A SERPENTINE
TOO TIGHT RESULTS IN SOME PRETTY BAD DISTORTION.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bill Hargin (Nan Ya, USA)
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course;
and make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad Laminates
billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 425-301-4425? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx
has something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byaleilee2008
4 years 8 months 26 days
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Answered byaleilee2008
4 years 8 months 26 days
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Answered byCristian_Filip
4 years 8 months 26 days
Hi Lei,
In HyperLynx BoardSim you can enable self-coupling from the main menu Setup ->
Coupling Settings -> Include self-coupling. This option is turned on by default.
However I don't think that this forum is the right place for asking this type
of questions. You should start by searching in the documentation that comes
along with HyperLynx and if you can't find an answer there you can always
contact either your local AE or our customer support team.
Thank you,
Cristian
(613)963-1009
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of lei li
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 6:08 AM
To: dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Dear Mr.Brooks
thanks for your this article.
And thank all experts for your comments.
I knew that self-coupling can be realized in Hyperlynx LineSim after proper
coupling setting.
But I'm not sure if self-coupling calculation is involved in Hyperlynx BoardSim.
At least, self-coupling can't be seen in Hyperlynx LineSim after exporting the
serpentine line from BoardSim to LineSim on my side.
Can any BoardSim users give me some clues to this topic?
Regards
Lei
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:35:34 -0700
From: dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
I wrote an article once specifically on this effect. You can download
it at
http://www.ultracad.com/mentor/mentor%20signal%20timing2.pdf
Also check out my latest book
"PCB Trace and Via Currents and Temperatures: The Complete Analysis"
Can get it it here
http://www.amazon.com/author/dougbrooks
Doug Brooks
Lee Ritchey wrote:
I HAVE USED THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MAKING A SERPENTINE
TOO TIGHT RESULTS IN SOME PRETTY BAD DISTORTION.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Hargin (Nan
Ya, USA)
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course;
and make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad
Laminates billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 425-301-4425? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx
has something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byCharles.Grasso
4 years 8 months 26 days
There is no question - Exporting a serpentine trace from BoardSim and
running in LineSim does work - very well.
I recommend that you contact Mentor Graphics for their support.
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of lei li
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 4:08 AM
To: dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Dear Mr.Brooks
thanks for your this article.
And thank all experts for your comments.
I knew that self-coupling can be realized in Hyperlynx LineSim after proper
coupling setting.
But I'm not sure if self-coupling calculation is involved in Hyperlynx BoardSim.
At least, self-coupling can't be seen in Hyperlynx LineSim after exporting the
serpentine line from BoardSim to LineSim on my side.
Can any BoardSim users give me some clues to this topic?
Regards
Lei
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 15:35:34 -0700
From: dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
I wrote an article once specifically on this effect. You can download
it at
http://www.ultracad.com/mentor/mentor%20signal%20timing2.pdf
Also check out my latest book
"PCB Trace and Via Currents and Temperatures: The Complete Analysis"
Can get it it here
http://www.amazon.com/author/dougbrooks
Doug Brooks
Lee Ritchey wrote:
I HAVE USED THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MAKING A SERPENTINE
TOO TIGHT RESULTS IN SOME PRETTY BAD DISTORTION.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Hargin (Nan
Ya, USA)
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course;
and make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad
Laminates billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 425-301-4425? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx
has something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byistvan.novak
4 years 8 months 27 days
Hi Lei,
The behavior will look different in microstrip and stripline.
As it was already pointed out, the coupling manifests itself in the time
domain as an edge distortion, not only as a time shift.
So until the cumulative crosstalk contributors reach the logic
threshold, you may not see very different delays. If for fun you want
to check out a 20+ year old paper on the subject, you can look at
http://www.electrical-integrity.com/Paper_download_files/EMC95_Zurich.pdf
and its references.
Regards,
Istvan Novak
Oracle
On 5/18/2016 5:40 AM, aleilee2008 wrote:
Resend
hi, experts
I want to see the time delay and signal quality impacted by serpentine line
patterns changed.
But it seems no changes found in Hyperlynx simulation results.
Can Hyperlynx support serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation?
if not, which tools support this simulation requirement?
thanks
BR
Lei
Answered byaleilee2008
4 years 8 months 27 days
Resend
hi, experts
I want to see the time delay and signal quality impacted by serpentine line
patterns changed.
But it seems no changes found in Hyperlynx simulation results.
Can Hyperlynx support serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation?
if not, which tools support this simulation requirement?
thanks
BR
Lei
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Answered byravinder.ajmani
4 years 8 months 27 days
It is possible that the crosstalk window is set too narrow (narrower than the
serpentine trace spacing), so the simulator is not checking for crosstalk from
serpentine traces.
Regards,
Ravinder Ajmani
HGST, a Western Digital Corporation brand
Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
5601 Great Oaks Pkwy
San Jose, CA 95119
www.hgst.com
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of aleilee2008
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 2:41 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Resend
hi, experts
I want to see the time delay and signal quality impacted by serpentine line
patterns changed.
But it seems no changes found in Hyperlynx simulation results.
Can Hyperlynx support serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation?
if not, which tools support this simulation requirement?
thanks
BR
Lei
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Answered bydbrooks9
4 years 8 months 27 days
I wrote an article once specifically on this effect. You can download it at
http://www.ultracad.com/mentor/mentor%20signal%20timing2.pdf
Also check out my latest book
"PCB Trace and Via Currents and Temperatures: The Complete Analysis"
Can get it it here
http://www.amazon.com/author/dougbrooks
Doug Brooks
Lee Ritchey wrote:
I HAVE USED THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MAKING A SERPENTINE
TOO TIGHT RESULTS IN SOME PRETTY BAD DISTORTION.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bill Hargin (Nan Ya, USA)
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course; and
make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad Laminates
billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ? 425-301-4425 ? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx has
something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byGert.Havermann
4 years 8 months 28 days
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx has
something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byleeritchey
4 years 8 months 28 days
I HAVE USED THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MAKING A SERPENTINE TOO
TIGHT RESULTS IN SOME PRETTY BAD DISTORTION.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bill Hargin (Nan Ya, USA)
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 8:49 AM
To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx; aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course; and
make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad Laminates
billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ? 425-301-4425 ? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx has
something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered bybillh
4 years 8 months 28 days
Hi Lei:
HyperLynx supports self coupling ... (since 1999, in fact).
You need to make sure the crosstalk option/license is enabled, of course; and
make sure that the serpentine is in the same "coupling region."
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing
Nan Ya Copper-Clad Laminates
billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ? 425-301-4425 ? Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 4:05 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in Hyperlynx
Hi Lei,
I don't know about Hyperlynx, but ADS for instance has a separate coupling
controller which has to be used for traces in such cases. Maybe Hyperlynx has
something similar.
BR
Gert
Answered byshlepnev
4 years 8 months 28 days
Hi Lei,
You can benchmark the tool with the meandering microstrip structure used in
app. Note #2009_06 at http://www.simberian.com/AppNotes.php. See page 31 -
it contains complete description of the structure geometry and material
parameters and the measurement results validated with the electromagnetic
analysis (or the other way around :-).
Best regards,
Yuriy
Yuriy Shlepnev, Ph.D.
President, Simberian Inc.
2629 Townsgate Rd., Suite #235, Westlake Village, CA 91361, USA
Office +1-702-876-2882; Fax +1-702-482-7903
Cell +1-206-409-2368; Virtual +1-408-627-7706
Skype: shlepnev
www.simberian.com
Simbeor - Accurate, Productive and Cost-Effective Electromagnetic Signal
Integrity Software
2010 and 2011 DesignVision Award Winner, 2015 Best In Design&Test Finalist
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of aleilee2008
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 2:41 AM
To: aleilee2008@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation in
Hyperlynx
Resend
hi, experts
I want to see the time delay and signal quality impacted by serpentine line
patterns changed.
But it seems no changes found in Hyperlynx simulation results.
Can Hyperlynx support serpentine line self-crosstalk simulation?
if not, which tools support this simulation requirement?
thanks
BR
Lei
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